Curse

Enix · Mar 30, 2006, 10:07 PM // 22:07

The having duplicate skills is rediculous. We dont need "new" skills that are just rebranded - just make more core skills available to factions only players. There is no reason to have multiple skills that do the same funtion other than to facilitate spike teams. It's similar to decreasing the recharge time for skills by half or giving people a permanent echoed skill. I know there are only so many ways to skin a cat - just make some of the skills more dissimilar than similar (recharge rates, energy cost, cast time, conditional damage, etc.)

Xpl0iter · Mar 30, 2006, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

dont forget that there are many new skills added and that a dupe skill will force you to leave a possibly better one behind.

also none of the dupes has been shown to be an overpowered monster.

and last but not least there is the nerf or in this case maybe the removal and replacement of a problem skill.

Anet seems to work to keep a reasonable balance going

Ah, dude, Guildwars to Loviatar, Guildwars to Loviatar.. time to wake up
Have you not read the thread properly? there are so many combos and sets people have already realized before the faction has even been released my dear friend. They do have good combos with dupe skills made and ready to be used. I could quote alot of posts from this thread which shows the skills that impower certain professions.
Now, the nerf that you have spoke of, is really that concerns me, i hope ANET realizes a better way to fix this issue. Most of the professions which already like the dupe skills will obviously go with this setup. People, like me, who got worst spells duped, will clearly point out the issues that these skills cause.
Anet seems to work to keep a reasonable balance going?
I really do not think so my friend.
There are so many other threads which have been discussing the issue of other professions vs elementalists. i guess you need to pay them a serious attention before you discuss the "balance maintained" by ANET.
If you have any concerns regarding the balance of this game and finding the threads, please let me know, and i will gladly point you to one of those, in which i have been writing posts without a delay.
just for the kicks, i will paste one of the posts taken from this other thread that i have mentioned. so here goes nothing:

Quote:

Originally Posted by jibikao

Equinox
Create a level {unknown} Spirit. Spells cast within its range that cause Exhaustion cause double the Exhaustion instead. This Spirit dies after {unknown} seconds.
--------------

Do Rangers need more skills against Elementalists? LOL I mean seriously. The whole Ranger class is designed to kill Ele. Rangers have great elemental resistance, their arrows reduce their Wards to useless, they have so many interruption skills, they have skills that do CRAZY damage on enchantment foe (Melandru's Assault can easily do over +100 damage and there is Melandru's Arrow) and now we have this elite spirit that can potentially destory all Eles.
Oh my.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Luckily for Eles, no Ranger would waste an Elite for this, especially sense Eles suck so bad to begin with (not flaming, I want Eles to rock, believe me. But judging from the Preview, Mesmers and Necros got buffed, and Eles got jacked.)

Now, let me know your own opinion about this "balance" you have mentioned, which Anet has maintained.
The link to this thread, where the quotes have been taken from is:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3000813
Mind you, these quotes will seem off the topic, but they happen to be a branch of same problem.
Regardz

Mordakai · Mar 30, 2006, 10:30 PM // 22:30

"Luckily for Eles, no Ranger would waste an Elite for this, especially sense Eles suck so bad to begin with (not flaming, I want Eles to rock, believe me. But judging from the Preview, Mesmers and Necros got buffed, and Eles got jacked.)"

Dang, that typo is still there? I thought I fixed that...

Should be "since" not "sense".

Sorry, pet peeve, carry on...

Rayne Nightfyre · Mar 30, 2006, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Although I understand to a degree A-Net's reasoning in doing this, it's rather annoying and redundant.

/signed.

Loviatar · Mar 30, 2006, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

"Luckily for Eles, no Ranger would waste an Elite for this, especially sense Eles suck so bad to begin with (not flaming, I want Eles to rock, believe me. But judging from the Preview, Mesmers and Necros got buffed, and Eles got jacked.)"

Dang, that typo is still there? I thought I fixed that...

Should be "since" not "sense".

Sorry, pet peeve, carry on...

my favorite(s) still are an elemonk and an elenecro.

they will rise again someday.

like the southern farmer spreading yeast on his farmland so that..............
*the south shall rise again*

Dragonious · Mar 30, 2006, 10:40 PM // 22:40

/signed

i was expecting to see 25 totally new skills for each profession. i do not want to see duplicate skills. i would rather see a whole new different skill.

Loviatar · Mar 30, 2006, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

Now, the nerf that you have spoke of, is really that concerns me, i hope ANET realizes a better way to fix this issue.

i think if something proves a problem it will be a substitution rather than a nerf for the simple reason the skill by itself would be weakened too much.

have some faith that things will get straightened out.

at least my poor ele doesnt have level 40 backstabbers to worry about

Quote:

Dragonious

i was expecting to see 25 totally new skills for each profession. i do not want to see duplicate skills. i would rather see a whole new different skill.

are you aware that the dupes are above, beyond, and extra to the 25 new skills?

Savio · Mar 30, 2006, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

Ah, dude, Guildwars to Loviatar, Guildwars to Loviatar.. time to wake up
Have you not read the thread properly? there are so many combos and sets people have already realized before the faction has even been released my dear friend. They do have good combos with dupe skills made and ready to be used. I could quote alot of posts from this thread which shows the skills that impower certain professions.

Please do quote the good combos with dupe skills, as I see very few skills bringing along normally, much less bringing two of. Double Desperate Dolyak, the metagame is so screwed... not. As Thom said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

If touch rangers replace eviserate warriors, come back to watch me eat crow; I doubt you have to worry about balance with these types of skills.

The argument most people made in this thread is that there's really no point in doing it, which is a rather flimsy argument.

And to clarify a few things:
List of Factions skills: As you can see, each old profession gets 30 skills, 25 new ones and 5 duplicates.
List of duplicate skills: I was going to make a list, but I was beat to it.

Hella Good · Mar 30, 2006, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

The argument most people made in this thread is that there's really no point in doing it, which is a rather flimsy argument.

I wouldn't really call it flimsy... esp. since there is other support arguments that go along with the "no point in doing it" one. These include but are not limited to questionable strategic value, possible balance issues, and negative image implications. But you are certainly free to give your judgments.

Talking about choice of words, I find the following interesting:
"ArenaNet have ostensibly added in these duplicate skills to add strategic depth by allowing multiple uses of the same skill..."

Seems that even the person writing the Guild Wiki article was not quite sure how to put Anet's flimsy reason for doubling the skills into perspective.

Loviatar · Mar 30, 2006, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

Ah, dude, Guildwars to Loviatar, Guildwars to Loviatar.. time to wake up
Have you not read the thread properly? there are so many combos and sets people have already realized before the faction has even been released my dear friend.

hi

from someone here who has earned respect for knowing what he is talking about

Quote:

Ensign

My only complaint is that many of the skills chosen to duplicate do not provide much added flexibility. It feels like they were chosen as skills that were 'safe' to duplicate, most of the ones they duplicated are either bad skills, or ones that aren't really limited by their recharges. So while there are a few cute things like double IHex, in general my response to the duped skills is 'if I thought these were any good before I would have used them when I only had one copy.'

I.E., I feel somewhat cheated by the dupes, because a new skill, even if it's terrible, is at least a new option. Giving us another copy of a non-impact skill just waters down the skill pool, it doesn't expand it at all.

Peace,
-CxE

Theos · Mar 30, 2006, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hella Good

I wouldn't really call it flimsy... esp. since there is other support arguments that go along with the "no point in doing it" one. These include but are not limited to questionable strategic value, possible balance issues, and negative image implications. But you are certainly free to give your judgments.

Talking about choice of words, I find the following interesting:
"ArenaNet have ostensibly added in these duplicate skills to add strategic depth by allowing multiple uses of the same skill..."

Seems that even the person writing the Guild Wiki article was not quite sure how to put Anet's flimsy reason for doubling the skills into perspective.

Is there no point in MTG copying skills? I hate to draw from them as an example but even a little can go a long way. At the current moment we may not see any strategic depth but, as it has been said, some of these skills have been popular in Prophecies, and have become highly used. But since there could be balance implications in FUTURE expansions Anet did not put them on the corelist, something like a semi ban for the future.

I see no negative image implications... well beyond this thread. Again MTG does not get hated for remaking skills, there are no mass "OMG remove these repeats please". From what I have noticed from MTG, from my many years if of playing, even the smallest skill, which could seem harmless prior to release, can become a driving force behind something new.

A thread like this really has no ground on strategic/balance issues until the game is released and the real things can be seen and the real crap can hit the fan, not theoretical ideas of things that have yet to really be imbalanced.

Savio · Mar 31, 2006, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hella Good

I wouldn't really call it flimsy... esp. since there is other support arguments that go along with the "no point in doing it" one.

Oh, but we shouldn't be arguing about whether or not Arenanet should do it, it's already done. Saying it's pointless for Arenanet to do this is pointless itself as it's rather hard to go back in time and tell Arenanet to not put duplicate skills in Factions. What's done is done; now we argue about whether or not it was a smart choice and should the duplicate skills remain.

Quote:

These include but are not limited to questionable strategic value

Granted, I see little value in most of the duplicates myself, but then you extend that problem to non-duplicated bad skills. Why should bad skills exist? Yes, this is another MtG reference, but a good article to read is When Cards Go Bad, which aptly states why.

Quote:

possible balance issues

I stand by what some of the others have said that they really aren't gamebreaking, not to the degree that others are claiming.

Quote:

and negative image implications.

Can't be helped. When Arenanet nerfed SoA axes, people raged. When When Arenanet added in green items, people raged. Arenanet nerfed Ether Renewal, people raged. When Arenanet added Observer mode, people raged. Someone always gets their toes stepped on when change happens, although I fail to see how adding a few duplicate skills detracts from the rest of what Factions has.

Quote:

Seems that even the person writing the Guild Wiki article was not quite sure how to put Anet's flimsy reason for doubling the skills into perspective.

I don't think any of us here have ever completely grasped what Arenanet tries to do. At any rate, I don't go to GuildWiki for opinions, just information.

none · Mar 31, 2006, 12:23 AM // 00:23

I have absolutely nothing against duplicate skills, after all, they don't count towards the 300 new skills that will come with Factions. I see alot of possibilites for those new skills, and absolutely no harm they can do.

Xpl0iter · Mar 31, 2006, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Ensign sure has 100 folds more expereince than i do, but then, his opinion about him keeping certain skills was solely depended on how he felt which was important, and which is not. Just cause an expereinced player has his opinion about something, doesn't mean a regular player still has no opinion about their own usage.
My point will remain for now.
Did i make sense to you Loviator? if not, i will clear my post further by editing it.
If i recall correctly, arcane echo would only copy a spell, not skill. And a warrior would never carry Echo at first place as an Elite. Hence, at this point, a war with any skill they prefered, when becomes duped, can be used without the usage of any echo. Mind you, what Ensign said was about casters, not meele warriors, or rangers.

Regardz

DaerunAxis · Mar 31, 2006, 01:15 AM // 01:15

i believe those "doubled skills" are just skills that have not been finished by the dev team. These skills are probably going to be updated to be different, if only marginally

Thom · Mar 31, 2006, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Um, no, this has been covered already: They are indeed doubles and will remain that way.

Ensign is a smart guy, but the jury is still out on the usefulness of these skills. My full response is somewhere in this thread.